Upcoming trial for Council seat

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Severn
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Severn » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:35 pm

I meant no disrespect in my comments, as I said, I was simply curious. I have never actually met with the characters or player. While I have heard much, about both, I reserve my own personal opinions for when meeting either or both actually takes place. When I made the comment of "put up with" at the time I was remembering and thinking of all the strange looks people give Walter in Fringe, how Raistin was forever threatening to turn Tass into something if he didn't go way and leave him alone, and how B. A. was forever threatening to cause bodily harm to Murdock, and those characters are very much "put up with".

Traditionally such characters often inspire rather strong emotions from those around them, and depending on the characters, it ranges from highly amused, exasperated but mostly tolerant, to violent yet with restraint. I do think that such reactions IC should be expected, especially if they already fall within a characters well known personality.

Again, I was curious. As much as I was curious about the answer to that question, I was also very much curious if there was more to the actual character than simply talking to cows and being amusing. As that's about all I have heard, I was assuming, or maybe hoping, there was more to the story. And lets face it, hidden depths in characters is always fun.
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Ra'Dian Fl'Gith
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Ra'Dian Fl'Gith » Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:05 pm

Sorry... I probably should have responded to each post separately... I was just trying to respond without turning the thread into my own personal response factory. :) I actually took your post to be asking out of curiosity, and I apologize if my response didn't quite convey that.

I agree that the character should expect some in-character responses akin to what she receives. Regardless of whether the character (by player design) is crazy or really can talk to cows (let's face it, people have made more "interesting" or "unique" choices about what their characters can or cannot do than talking to cows), I certainly support genuine in-character reactions. In fact, Ra'Dian often looks at her with mild bemusement (though, sometimes, exasperation depending on the situation). What grieves me is that I know many of the interactions are stemmed not from IC interaction but OOC build-up, and that's where I think the line gets sort of crossed at times, and valid interactions become wildly strange. I mean, I've been questioned as to why my character would interact IC at all, and it's sort of like, well, okay, I don't put blinders on to the world around me.

And yeah, I completely agree... hidden depth to characters is always fun! I can't honestly speak to the complexities of Beauvina as she's not my character, but I see her as at very least an interesting eccentric character. Only time will tell how she develops, but you know, all good characters tend to do that whether we control it or not. :)
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basil
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by basil » Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:47 pm

Err... first I've heard of it, so I'm going to guess the message didn't get sent far and wide. This "no one" probably doesn't exist.
I'm not trying to be a jerk with this response Ra, but just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Before I left, I was well aware of a number of people that were interested in starting a town govt. I sent the private messages out to those people on this forum and to people that could get a hold of those people. My ICQ doesn't work here and my ping to Vent is 1500 to 2000. I'm not going to advertise in public "HEY, I'LL HELP YOU BUY THIS" because that draws people who just want to take advantage of someone's free gold. I'm only willing to help serious people because I'm not going to waste resources on people who will just let it decay in 6 months. I've done that before and I'm not going to do it again.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I didn't contact you because you already have a ton of housing between Compassion Grove and your Felucca area around the crossroads.
With respect, you've seen logs that (1) may have been altered or picked up in the middle of a dispute, and (2) have definitely not gotten the full side of the story if you're going to believe those logs and point fingers at the way "she attacks other people."
I am well aware that logs can be altered. If it was just one, I'd not be inclined to believe it. I've been through this whole dog and pony show before. However, when you get three different ones from three different people, a trend begins to form. The similarities between them are hard to deny. If you are accusing that there is a conspiracy amongst several people to persecute Silver, then why are we ever here? We are fucked if that is the case, the community may as well go it's separate ways.
What's NOT acceptable is the situation we have here though... those logs are between the people that spoke them, and if they can't work out their situation, that's fine, but it's unacceptable for them to spread those logs like wildfire in order to build a case against one person just because they can't handle the situation on their own.
I disagree. People have to be held accountable for the mean shit they say and the threats they make. This may be just a game, but these are real people interacting and the fact a person is hiding behind a computer hundreds of miles away doesn't give that person the right to act like a complete jackass. I know 99% of the shit people have said about each other wouldn't have been said if the person lived across the street. Why? Because that neighbor would beat the shit out of the other person if they did.
Oh, that's good, Basil. If you really think that the whole situation here is Silver's player is trying to get under Dak's player's skin, you've drunk the grape kool-aid that Dak's player has provided. It's not the case and has never been the case.
I don't drink anyone's Kool-aid. I never have, nor will I ever. DaK knows my feelings about the pissing contests that have occurred in the past seven months under his Chancellorship. I've given my advice and it has been his choice whether or not to act on it.
I mean, let's look at the logic of this... Silver's player wants to put a character on the High Council to do some stuff out of Jhelom. Wants to get some events and stuff going. Or Silver's player just wants to be a thorn in DaKaren's player's side.
Different people, same trends. She self admitted to never wanting to have anything to do with the High Council. In several of the logs she even swore never again to bother with the High Council. Hell, even in my few private conversations with her, she has said the same thing. Yet she continually pops up when she knows it will irk the people she has problems with. I find it hard to believe that four months ago I heard about one of the people she is having these pissing contests with is working on an idea for Jhelom, then all of a sudden Silver is wanting to use that city? That sounds like a thorn to me.
No. No she doesn't. I agree it would be good if "these people" sat down and talked and tried to hash things out, but she no more has to apologize to them than they do to her, and if there's going to be apologizing going on, then it needs to be a two-way street.
Trends. If it were one person, then yeah, I'd give the benefit of the doubt. But in all of these cases, it's pretty apparent that she doesn't want to make up. These people are 'dead to her'.
I mean, I served as Councilor of Magincia waaaaaaaay back when the Council first started, and I took the role seriously and went out and tried to drum up some activity. But, yeah, Magincia was basically "just me" at the time. People didn't show up to my events saying, "You know, I don't see anyone else here on Magincia that has your support, so no, I don't recognize you."
Your reaching back over eight years. Yeah, I did the same thing with Kellor. It was all good fun, but the Council in later years moved away from that. If the Council wants to move back that way, then by all means, but I get the feeling they don't.
Which is exactly the crux of the issue at this point. It wouldn't matter if I had four people or five people standing here saying, "I'll support her," because the person who is looking to keep her uninvolved will continually look for reasons to say "no."
DaKaren doesn't have a stranglehold on this community and Council, Ra. Last I checked he is the only one in his guild, so he doesn't have the power to kick any of the offended parties from his guild. He doesn't own any of the buildings that anyone uses in the community, so he doesn't have the power to ban them from community events. He isn't an EM, so he doesn't have the power to ban someone from those events. The only thing he has any control over is this site, and if you look above, I think it is pretty obvious he isn't being petty and banning Silver from this site.

People follow him because right now no one else is stepping up with a serious face to take his spot, or at least try to take his spot in a vote. Silver could have maybe done that if she had ran with a serious character, but by running with a character that long ago she said was a joke, she lost any credibility with those looking for another direction.

If Silver came at this with what the requirements were that were setup by the Council, then even DaKaren couldn't refuse her. He isn't this all powerful guy that can just cut someone out of the Council or community.
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Ra'Dian Fl'Gith
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Ra'Dian Fl'Gith » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:17 pm

basil wrote:
Err... first I've heard of it, so I'm going to guess the message didn't get sent far and wide. This "no one" probably doesn't exist.
I'm not trying to be a jerk with this response Ra, but just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I didn't say it didn't happen. I said the message didn't get sent far and wide. The idea that "no one" would have been interested in doing anything in Whispering Winds is one that, given conversations I've had with others, curious.
Before I left, I was well aware of a number of people that were interested in starting a town govt. I sent the private messages out to those people on this forum and to people that could get a hold of those people. My ICQ doesn't work here and my ping to Vent is 1500 to 2000. I'm not going to advertise in public "HEY, I'LL HELP YOU BUY THIS" because that draws people who just want to take advantage of someone's free gold. I'm only willing to help serious people because I'm not going to waste resources on people who will just let it decay in 6 months. I've done that before and I'm not going to do it again.
My point is simply that there are people who are interested in doing stuff that I will go out on a limb and say didn't know about a Whispering Winds offer. Maybe they're not people you know, and that's fine. I simply am challenging the idea that "no one" was interested.
Like I said, I'm not trying to be a jerk. I didn't contact you because you already have a ton of housing between Compassion Grove and your Felucca area around the crossroads.
Which is a curious statement. First, obviously I wouldn't have any interest in doing anything in Whispering Winds as you're correct, I have Dracona that I'm more interested in doing something with. However, it's curious that you wouldn't consider the possibility I might have known someone I consider trustworthy and maybe put them in contact with you. Again, hence my challenge of the idea that "no one" was interested.

I have not implied you're being a jerk, Basil. I simply challenge that "no one" would have been interested.
I am well aware that logs can be altered. If it was just one, I'd not be inclined to believe it. I've been through this whole dog and pony show before. However, when you get three different ones from three different people, a trend begins to form. The similarities between them are hard to deny. If you are accusing that there is a conspiracy amongst several people to persecute Silver, then why are we ever here? We are fucked if that is the case, the community may as well go it's separate ways.
I'd be curious to know who the third person is, but not curious enough to ask. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy at all, Basil. I'm saying that one of the situations I am aware of was an explosive OOC thing that I have no interest in trying to mediate -- and I guarantee that the situation between them is a two-way street. The only other situation I'm aware of involved one person attacking the other's methods of roleplay and then not being able to take criticism in return, and it exploded out of control. Again, a two-way street.

My point is that for the situations I'm aware of I know of many more positive interactions, so I'm curious why the situations are worth so much merit. Now, you speak of a third. I obviously can't confirm or deny whatever it is, nor do I really want to. But I'd suggest taking it into perspective.

Simply put, we all have our moments from time to time... Do I know all of the details? No. Do you? No. Not even if you have logs to back it up with. I've had disagreements with people before too, but the difference is I tend to work toward community solutions and get over myself at some point. Can you honestly say you believe that's the situation here?
I disagree. People have to be held accountable for the mean shit they say and the threats they make. This may be just a game, but these are real people interacting and the fact you are hiding behind a computer hundreds of miles away doesn't give you the right to act like a complete jackass. I know 99% of the shit people have said about each other wouldn't have been said if the person lived across the street. Why? Because that neighbor would beat the shit out of the other person if they did.
Again, you're presuming you know the full situation, and you're asking someone to apologize for having disagreed with someone else. Threats made. Really? Is this about the two year old "I'll bring down the high council" threat? First off, while people say shit all the time, there's a such thing as exploding in the heat of a moment -- and then most of us get up and move away from it. Are we really going to hold someone accountable for a heated argument from two years ago -- AND not hold the other person involved accountable too?
I don't drink anyone's Kool-aid. I never have, nor will I ever. DaK knows my feelings about the pissing contests that have occurred in the past seven months under his Chancellorship. I've given my advice and it has been his choice whether or not to act on it.
That's great... but you're here speaking out against Silver without speaking about the other half of the issue at present.

I mean, two meetings ago, DaKaren was the only person who kept the "no," meanwhile pretty much everyone else was (1) uninterested, (2) felt ah, whatever, let her have the seat, or (3) supportive of the idea. Now again, I won't dare to speak to everyone's feelings on the matter, but I do know that camp 1 was the majority, camp 2 was probably a larger minority, and I'll admit camp 3 was the smallest group. Point is, the situation could have been handled in an appropriate manner both IC and OOC, and it was not.
Different people, same trends. She self admitted to never wanting to have anything to do with the High Council. In several of the logs she even swore never again to bother with the High Council. Hell, even in my few private conversations with her, she has said the same thing. Yet she continually pops up when she knows it will irk the people she has problems with. I find it hard to believe that four months ago I heard about one of the people she is having these pissing contests with is working on an idea for Jhelom, then all of a sudden Silver is wanting to use that city? That sounds like a thorn to me.
Really? And just who is this pissing contest with that's so interested in Jhelom? I know... just because I didn't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But it's very curious that all of these logs are suddenly available to you.

As for her opinion on the High Council, hell, her opinion is nothing new to me. The reason she keeps going back and forth is pretty clear though. Sometimes the High Council is doing interesting things to further RP and in essence, doing what it should as a functional RP body. On the other hand, sometimes it's sitting on its ass doing nothing, and some of the people can be really condescending, openly, and publicly when other people try to get things going.

So... no, I really have no interest in what logs you might have to show prior opinion. People change their minds. And the Jhelom thing... really? I don't buy it at all.
Trends. If it were one person, then yeah, I'd give the benefit of the doubt. But in all of these cases, it's pretty apparent that she doesn't want to make up. These people are 'dead to her'.
Really? So if I were to provide you logs of situations that I'm not going to make public, that would sway your opinion about other people involved? I somehow doubt it. Just because you've got people tossing logs at you doesn't mean there isn't a counterpoint to the situation.
Your reaching back over eight years. Yeah, I did the same thing with Kellor. It was all good fun, but the Council in later years moved away from that. If the Council wants to move back that way, then by all means, but I get the feeling they don't.
Yeah, the Council moved away from that when the community was a hell of a lot larger. Tell me how, in a reduced community size, picking and choosing with an exacto knife is a good thing? And, I'm not certain who all these members of the Council are who are standing against it. There's DaKaren, Malag, Pab, Polynikes, and me currently serving on the Council to my knowledge.

DaKaren = Strong no to Beauvina, but it's okay for recent communities to be supported by one active member.

Malag = Has told me personally he wishes that Silver's player would use Silver and not Beauvina, but whatever, and has been good, at least publicly as far as I know, about not getting into the OOC pissing match.

Pab = Clearly annoyed by the Beauvina character, have no idea.

Polynikes = Has expressed to me that stuff that's good for the community should be allowed to go forward; does have reservations about the Beauvina character, but has expressed to me no concerns about the Silverbrook player except as I'll detail in a moment.

Me = Supports the idea of going forward with it because I know the player has done activities, and hell even if she gets bored in six months and abandons the seat again, we had six months of something going on.

Now, what everyone (save Dak) has expressed to me is that neither party involved -- Silver or Dak -- have handled this appropriately. But what I see and hear is "Dak's absolved of blame" for some reason and the situation lies squarely on Silver. Well, to that, I, and several others I've spoken to say "bullshit."

So at the end of the day, I see one person vehemently against this idea who actually sits on the Council. Yeah, I know of at least one or two other people not actively on the Council but who I do consider respected people in the community who also don't think it's right to do. I also know some who are respected people who think we should go ahead with it. At the end of the day, perhaps a conversation is in order -- but you can't have that conversation when the guy who thinks he's in charge says, "No, the answer is no, it's not up for discussion, fuck her!"
DaKaren doesn't have a stranglehold on this community and Council, Ra. Last I checked he is the only one in his guild, so he doesn't have the power to kick any of the offended parties from his guild. He doesn't own any of the buildings that anyone uses in the community, so he doesn't have the power to ban them from community events. He isn't an EM, so he doesn't have the power to ban someone from those events. The only thing he has any control over is this site, and if you look above, I think it is pretty obvious he isn't being petty and banning Silver from this site.
I didn't suggest he was being petty and banning Silver from the site. I understand he doesn't have the power to ban anyone from anything. SOMEONE JUST MIGHT WANT TO TELL HIM THAT.

Because I've been so much as told that if I proceed in this from an IC perspective that "You will be ignored." And see, this is where community is hurt by one person who is supposed to be uniting the community and who is in a position where he should be doing community oriented stuff falls completely by the wayside and ends up hurting community instead.

I know not everyone in the community at present even knows who I am, but I think I can say that by and large I'm a respected member of the community. I believe I earned that respect by treating people fairly, and putting community forward. I guess we could argue that things change and I'm holding onto ideals from years ago, but really, should that be the part of the Council that changes? I will never claim I didn't have my moments -- hell, I'm sure I still do. But when you're the guy "in charge," you should be doing stuff to forward the community, not stagnate it. Sometimes you support things whether you believe in them or not, because sometimes your opinion doesn't matter at all, what matters is doing things right for the community.
People follow him because right now no one else is stepping up with a serious face to take his spot, or at least try to take his spot in a vote. Silver could have maybe done that if she had ran with a serious character, but by running with a character that long ago she said was a joke, she lost any credibility with those looking for another direction.
I'll say this... you're right, Beauvina probably never had much of a chance to move forward as Chancellor; Silverbrook might actually have won. We'll never know. However, just because he's the Chancellor doesn't mean it's his way or the highway, which to be frank, is often how he comes off.
If Silver came at this with what the requirements were that were setup by the Council, then even DaKaren couldn't refuse her. He isn't this all powerful guy that can just cut someone out of the Council or community.
If you think that her having a couple more people back her up would make this go away, you've missed out on what's going on. He hasn't said it to me, but it's been pretty clearly told me by others that he's done the "If she gets a seat, I'll leave," method of keeping her out, which puts people in the awkward position of deciding who to support. And of course, works to divide the community, rather than unite.
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Lord DaKaren » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:35 am

Silverbrook wrote: I am loathe to use this site…
Silverbrook.. You’re loath to use a site you not only encouraged be created, but donated to when it was up? Spare me your hypocrisy.
Silverbrook wrote: I'm also unsure why DaKaren felt that he was allowing me to serve so I wouldn't feel 'alientated'. Quite the contrary, I enjoy the RP that I do and the people I choose to interact with.
Never said ‘allowed’ you to serve, I said I wanted you to serve as I thought Magincia should be represented in its time of crisis as I agreed with you that Mythic’s handling of the event arc was only benefiting greedy players. Your second quoted sentence is a bit disturbing, mainly seeing as you pretty much only seem to RP with Ra – and to a much lesser extent the B.A.F. on training and tavern nights. But that’s your choice.

Oh, when did it become OK to start using first names? Simply because you know it doesn’t mean you should use it.
Silverbrook wrote: Alts and multiclienting…
I never said multiclienting was bad, or using alts at the same time for RP was bad. Both court cases had an attorney for the defense, he was the one calling characters to testify not I. How this relates to the issue at hand, however, is that you are trying to multiclient your way to city hood and seat on the Council. This shortcut is cheap, and isn’t they way to ‘build community,’ its faking community – something I wouldn’t do when Oona wanted everyone to put a char in the RKR so the guild appeared larger when she wanted to recruit.

We’re small, though not as small as we were last summer. YM returned and many great people came back with them, and Malag has found several more to join us. Are we burgeoning with newbies weekly? No. Can we expect to by faking things? No. Once people find out your faking, you lose credibility.

I have no problem with you running Jhelom – which I’ve said to everyone. However, completely circumventing the guidelines the rest of the community have abided by isn’t acceptable. Actually put some work into the city. Find new people. There are unaligned roleplayers out there, seek them out. But don’t expect to have a seat on the Council handed without putting any work in first simply because you want it.

Do some activities in Jhelom, stir up interest. Then go for seat on the HC. That’s how its worked for the other cities, including Britain (Auron’s Britain was the last to have a HC seat, Basils hasn’t since Ra was Chancellor)
Silverbrook wrote:I would guess I've run more events than perhaps every person ON the current High Council with perhaps the exception of Ra'Dian.
If you are going for your entire time in the community, that’s possible. However, aside from the cow pageant, you haven’t run any in years. You’ve definitely helped with them, but you haven’t even held a bunny bash since late ‘07
Silverbrook wrote:While I have never said I'm a fan of the High Council, I am a fan of community; which is why it saddens me that in my opinion Brad has used his OOC anger towards me to utilize IC conditions that present obstacles to assist the High Council. This is both odd and unfortunate, as I'm willing to assist the very fictional government that is currently 'run' by a character that is, essentially, putting his own issues before the good of many.
May my feelings toward you, based on your OOC tirades towards me color my IC interactions? Probably. However, you are guilty of exactly the same. When you were told to sit down IC, you refused. When told IC the issue would be discussed later, you refused again. When you finally did sit, you did it in a Council seat and then blithely ignored the Militiawoman who tried to move you. That was all IC. You chose to be a pain and put your indignance before everyone else’s play time.

Silverbrook wrote: And Brad? As far as these 'invisible people' that populate the cities, the HC in truth leads no one except those that recognize it, which is mainly the few RP groups which exist and thankfully EMs that realize the importance of RP on the shard. It is silly to get into a pissing contest over how many people you need to serve on a community, fictional government when the community itself is tragically small and you have someone who actually WANTS to hold events and lend a hand.

Le sigh. So we should allow you to fake a city? Just because you want to? Without ANY of the work that Yew has done, or any of the work Malag puts into Newcastle? Please tell me why? What makes YOU so special that you should skip right to the HC without any of the time consuming stuff? As I said before, hold events, gain people, THEN go for a seat just like every other city has done.
Silverbrook wrote: I ask you: when was the last time you gave back to the community?
Please tell me you aren’t that petty or naive. You’re writing on one of the things I’ve done for the community. Vent is another. All three libraries. And help to anyone wanting to run an event, regardless of its size.

Perhaps if you were actually around more, playing with more than your ‘select few,’ you’d know that
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Lord DaKaren » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:39 am

To Edward Striker,

I'm sorry that your first experience to the HC wasn't even remotely what it should have been.

I appologize on behalf of the community and humbly ask that you return in the future when things have settled.

If I may ask, who do you represent? Were you Malag's friend who came in Vent with us?
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Jason Tussaud » Sun Jun 27, 2010 1:58 am

OK, the high council, to me, is the Shinning eye of the Role Play on Great Lakes. Correct me if im wrong but, in REAL LIFE, would someone who speaks to cows be even put on a poll, to be voted into a position of power. in the end, you have to look at it this way.

OOC: Fine there is issues between some players here. OK. Lets get over ourselves, and focus on the community. that means looking at the facts, TAKING NOTE, how this has effected the community. Bo, while i was reading this i took note of when you said you liked the community. Then why would you push this? why would you push it when you SEE the community. TEARING apart. Take a good look at it. and make a choice there. oh and going on and actually calling another player by his real name, is uncalled for on a Sight accessible by anyone who registers. Use character names please. as to the alt situation, find some way to actually fix that, Force them into VENT

IC: OK. Who in there right mind would show respect to a council person who thinks cows should be treated as people. look at it as "Would my character, even want her there?"

In Conclusion, until this matter is resolved. i will be asking my guild, and anyone we recruit to steer clear of the HC meeting so we can not be involved in that issue, i dont want OOC Crap, to effect my guild, and possibly harm the Roleplay plans i have. so dont plan to see us unless it is nessisary
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Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Lord DaKaren » Sun Jun 27, 2010 2:11 am

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:
2. Why was Beauvina allowed to continue after told to sit down? An Usher or a Sergeant of Arms should have removed her from the podium.
That's a tricky one, but in essence, mostly because the IC/OOC line had already been breached by the Chancellor at not one but two sessions in a row.
I went OOC because she was refusing to give up the issue for the time when asked to IC, and when everyone was obviously rather displeased with the situation. And honestly, how do you tell someone IC that their parade of alts doesn’t count as a community, or entitle them to sidestep the traditional path to a seat on the HC?
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:
3. Why did the center seat of the council not gavel her off and come back to the issue at the end?
I will say he tried to do so at the first meeting; the unfortunate issue at the crux of this is that the person behind the Chancellor and the person behind Beauvina have a dislike for each other, however that doesn't mean that one or the other should redact themselves from participating in the community.
Since your posting this after the conversation we had, and after I’d already said that I didn’t want her out of the community, I’m calling BS. I want her to follow the rules, not take what she wants when she wants it because she wants it.
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:
2. That this player used his/her own characters to nominate herself to this post. That just tells me that no one else was willing to.
That's actually not true. And for the record, as a player, I completely support her doing something in Jhelom, and if necessary, will use a character to support her in Jhelom; I'm sure I could find a second.
And had she actually done something before making herself the hero of Jhelom, such as an event, and had the support of the community -or god forbid- new players, this wouldn’t be an issue. The fact she simply chose to make up a community instead of actually putting in some hard work IS
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:
What I also found offensive was that there are other player sitting there wanting to take part and could not because the player (Beauvina) was so self-centered and rude, she did not care if she was wasting the time of other players. That in its self in my opinion would disqualified her from the post on the council.
Well, I've already privately said I agree that Beauvina's player's actions weren't necessarily the best, but I won't let the blame be centered entirely on one head. The situation was a two-way street, and the reactions of the player of the Chancellor were as bad in the situation because frankly, I believe he purposely took the actions he took because he believes he has the right to decide who can and cannot participate in the community -- and he does not have that right.
I don’t have the right to hold her to the same standards that everyone else lives up to? Right. Because Silver get to do what Silver wants, regardless of the work put in by the other cities.

You well know I want more cities represented, more people on the HC. Asking only two if they have any new business is a bit sad, but at least they do have players behind them. Again, faking a city isn’t going to make us look good. If we wanted to do that, I know there are several of who have enough accounts that we could seat every Britannian city.

So why don’t we do that? Because it would be fake and we would lose credibility. We want real growth, real communities, real people.

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote: To Basil:

If you really think that the whole situation here is Silver's player is trying to get under Dak's player's skin, you've drunk the grape kool-aid that Dak's player has provided. It's not the case and has never been the case.
Sitting in the HC chair after being asked to leave IC by me and being asked by a Militiawomen was to get under skin. Maybe not mine specifically, but nonetheless was done to annoy OOC. Furthermore, I haven’t passed out any Kool-Aid. I can’t make someone believe something, my powers of persuasion aren’t all-powerful.
Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:I mean, let's look at the logic of this... Silver's player wants to put a character on the High Council to do some stuff out of Jhelom. Wants to get some events and stuff going.
Sorry, but those actions are reversed. She doesn’t need to be on the HC in any capacity to hold events for Jhelom OR to have the HC support and help advertise it. You know this. Action before recognition, just like everyone else.

Ra'Dian Fl'Gith wrote:It wouldn't matter if I had four people or five people standing here saying, "I'll support her," because the person who is looking to keep her uninvolved will continually look for reasons to say "no."


Really. Really? That’s pure assumption on your part or posturing for the board, since you and I have already privately talked about this. I have not been looking to keep her uninvolved, I just want her to stop acting like she’s entitled to something she hasn’t done any work to earn.
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Ra'Dian Fl'Gith
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Posts: 29
UO Shard: Great Lakes
Character Age: 0

Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Ra'Dian Fl'Gith » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:31 am

Jason Tussaud wrote:OK, the high council, to me, is the Shinning eye of the Role Play on Great Lakes. Correct me if im wrong but, in REAL LIFE, would someone who speaks to cows be even put on a poll, to be voted into a position of power. in the end, you have to look at it this way.
I'm sorry, Jason, I mean no offense, but Real Life™ comparisons to a fantasy RPG are illegitimate, red-headed step-children. Though, I suspect many farmers cum politicians might argue the basis of the point. In UO, we speak to a hell of a lot of different things without anyone blinking an eye. So, no... speaking to cows doesn't, in and of itself, disqualify someone from doing anything in UO.
OOC: Fine there is issues between some players here. OK. Lets get over ourselves, and focus on the community. that means looking at the facts, TAKING NOTE, how this has effected the community. Bo, while i was reading this i took note of when you said you liked the community. Then why would you push this? why would you push it when you SEE the community. TEARING apart. Take a good look at it. and make a choice there. oh and going on and actually calling another player by his real name, is uncalled for on a Sight accessible by anyone who registers. Use character names please. as to the alt situation, find some way to actually fix that, Force them into VENT
Let's see... (1) It's only tearing the community apart because of the huge OOC rift and the irresponsible nature it was handled in; (2) Err, since when's it not okay to call another player by his real name?; (3) There's no forcing anyone into Vent, sorry.
IC: OK. Who in there right mind would show respect to a council person who thinks cows should be treated as people. look at it as "Would my character, even want her there?"
I don't know... the same people who would respect a demon that practices magical arts involving slaying souls in a town where necromancy is illegal? The same people who respect vampires who come to play? I mean... honestly, it's the lowest of the points involving whether Beauvina should be, as a character, allowed to serve a community function.
In Conclusion, until this matter is resolved. i will be asking my guild, and anyone we recruit to steer clear of the HC meeting so we can not be involved in that issue, i dont want OOC Crap, to effect my guild, and possibly harm the Roleplay plans i have. so dont plan to see us unless it is nessisary
The only resolution will come if the guy "on top" decides to stop dragging OOC issues into IC situations.
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Ra'Dian Fl'Gith
Citizen
Posts: 29
UO Shard: Great Lakes
Character Age: 0

Re: Upcoming trial for Council seat

Post by Ra'Dian Fl'Gith » Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:53 am

Lord DaKaren wrote:I went OOC because she was refusing to give up the issue for the time when asked to IC, and when everyone was obviously rather displeased with the situation. And honestly, how do you tell someone IC that their parade of alts doesn’t count as a community, or entitle them to sidestep the traditional path to a seat on the HC?
Actually, the first meeting, you allowed the meeting to grind to a halt for nearly 45 minutes without even so much as a word in-game until you finally indicated that I was the reason we were waiting because I was having technical issues with Vent (which was the case regarding Vent, but why we were waiting for me is beyond me). As to how you tell someone IC about their parade of alts? You don't. Just as I was pretty much expected to sit through alts badgering me about stuff that I had no control over in situations regarding a certain kidnapping and one's daughter constantly pressing forth on my/our inaction every week, you pretty much roll with it IC. Which is why when the rule being used as a stranglehold now was discussed when it was implemented, we agreed that stuff should remain IC, and if someone went through that much trouble, so be it.
Since your posting this after the conversation we had, and after I’d already said that I didn’t want her out of the community, I’m calling BS. I want her to follow the rules, not take what she wants when she wants it because she wants it.
You can call it whatever you want. You know from our discussion that I don't believe you; you also know that when presented with the situation of myself and other community people backing her, that you steered away from the topic and never answered.
And had she actually done something before making herself the hero of Jhelom, such as an event, and had the support of the community -or god forbid- new players, this wouldn’t be an issue. The fact she simply chose to make up a community instead of actually putting in some hard work IS
Except of course we already know what happens when she goes out and attempts to find new players, don't we?
I don’t have the right to hold her to the same standards that everyone else lives up to? Right. Because Silver get to do what Silver wants, regardless of the work put in by the other cities.
So how was it again that Yew held a seat when there was one person in Yew other than you and Willa? How is it that if Stryker were to show up tomorrow, he'd still have a seat on the High Council (and has had for several months while nothing has been said or done in Trinsic)? I'm not saying these things because I particularly care about Yew being represented during slow RP times, or that I think Stryker (who has very valid OOC reasons not to be around) should be stripped of his seat. I'm saying these things specifically because you do not hold everyone to the same standard equally. If you can't see it, so be it, but it's true.
You well know I want more cities represented, more people on the HC. Asking only two if they have any new business is a bit sad, but at least they do have players behind them. Again, faking a city isn’t going to make us look good. If we wanted to do that, I know there are several of who have enough accounts that we could seat every Britannian city.
So really, a "faked" city becomes "real" when there's 3 people there? I mean, come on. Do you not see how ludicrous that sounds? I understand you are having issues with this, but I and other people in the community know (as do you) that Silverbrook's player does run some fun and interesting events. If that were the complete and total only function that the City of Jhelom ever performed -- even at one every two months -- it would be worth having done. So it's one person. Hell, I've already said I'd find a way to make it three. It's not as though we have people clamoring to fill seats, and yet, for some reason an IC rule is having OOC strangleholds placed on it specifically to prevent someone who wants to do something for the community from doing so in an "official" capacity until they've jumped through hoops. Again, I suspect were this other players, this wouldn't have even been an issue.
So why don’t we do that? Because it would be fake and we would lose credibility. We want real growth, real communities, real people.
Then, I don't know... step up and do something to help growth instead of throwing a fit over a relatively minor situation that you have personally helped snowball into an avalanche.
Sitting in the HC chair after being asked to leave IC by me and being asked by a Militiawomen was to get under skin. Maybe not mine specifically, but nonetheless was done to annoy OOC. Furthermore, I haven’t passed out any Kool-Aid. I can’t make someone believe something, my powers of persuasion aren’t all-powerful.
No, it was done because quite frankly, you were sidestepping the situation for the second meeting in a row, and basically ignoring the voices of people who (whether you believe they were "giving in" or not) were saying "just give her the seat and let's be done with it." You're basically saying "I get the final say," and no, really, you don't.
Sorry, but those actions are reversed. She doesn’t need to be on the HC in any capacity to hold events for Jhelom OR to have the HC support and help advertise it. You know this. Action before recognition, just like everyone else.
Who is this long list of "everyone else?" You're correct, she doesn't have to be involved with the HC at all. God forbid someone would hold events, and at the same time tout the HC, right? What's funny is that you and I both know historically people who have background community respect have used alts to do things in and on the High Council without going through "the hoops," but I guess since it's an alt, and alts don't count, we just get to decide, "Hey, we know you as a player, but we don't like your character, and we don't trust you're going to do anything worthwhile, so no, you can't serve."
Really. Really? That’s pure assumption on your part or posturing for the board, since you and I have already privately talked about this. I have not been looking to keep her uninvolved, I just want her to stop acting like she’s entitled to something she hasn’t done any work to earn.
Really? Yes, really. During our discussion, you told me that if I handled this from an IC fashion that I would "be ignored." When I said that I could certainly find people who would not only support her, but who would actively help on characters, I was treated to an explanation that basically indicated Yew's seat was valid because it was backed by you, Willa, and I think Lika (don't remember the third person, not going to look it up right now), and so it was okay, since back then, you weren't in Newcastle, and Newcastle wasn't being represented at the time -- or was being represented by someone, but was inactive -- or whatever the case was at the time.

We also discussed whether people had to live in or around the city they represented in a physical sense, and we bantered back and forth about the fact that historically some have, some have not, but your opinion is, they should. When I mentioned there's no way anyone would be expected to hold a 7x7 plot on Jhelom, then it became, "Well, at least along the coast."

Now, sure, I'm presuming that all of these arguments are meant to say, "No, sorry, your backing wouldn't be enough because you don't live in Jhelom, and that since none of you live in Jhelom, it wouldn't be proper anyway..."

But then, since when I presented you with the possibility that I and at least one or two other people could definitely step forward and back her based on our enjoyment of her events -- events some of us have helped with, no less -- you gave me these examples rather than "That would be fine," I don't think I'm far off base here.
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