Lord DaKaren wrote:Whoever told you this is just outright lying. I have never said that I would quit if Beauvina got a seat on the HC. So you can drop this little bit of tripe from your rhetoric.
Whether you have specifically
said or strongly
implied it, it has come from people I would not accuse of
lying about anything. I'm pointing out the awkward position that you have put several people in by your continued stance on the subject in the face of what -- while perhaps they are telling you one thing and me another -- is pretty clear not a solid community stance against moving forward in a positive direction on the matter.
Actually, I think I know which threat Basil was referring to and it had to do with how someone said you would respond to things. This is also from November, so not directly about the current situation.
I understand it's not about the current situation. Neither are comments that Silverbrook's player made months and years ago with regard to the High Council, and yet they seem to be fair play here.
About the plot dropping. Uhm, again, whoever is feeding your information is wrong. I did say that if you got mad again that you might drop the Grove in anger. (This was after the 2nd time you’d done it about a year)
And as we both know, the very rare times that they have been dropped, they've been returned to their former status within an hour, two tops, of them having been dropped.
Never once did I say that “I would make you drop them” or even that “I want Ra to drop them.” Seriously, why would I want the Grove dropped? How in the hell would that benefit the HC or the community? I did, however, consider alternative options as I knew it was a possibility. So let’s put down the gossip crack pipe, stop being sensationalistic and think logically here.
It's not a "gossip crack pipe," nor am I being "sensationalistic" or thinking illogically. Look, as I've told you both privately, and now publicly, we all have our moments. That you somehow feel as if you never slight anyone during heated discussions is absolutely laughable given that I've been on the receiving end of your "calm demeanor" that you want us to all wish you had.
I'm not saying that you were serious when you said it, I'm not even accusing you of saying anything other than saying something in the heat of a moment. As I've already admitted to doing myself. The point is, you and a couple of others are holding to gospel things that Silverbrook's player said in the heat of a very heated discussion about whatever it was that was at the root of a couple of the discussions.
It would no more be fair to accuse you of
really wanting to destroy the High Council anymore than it would be fair to accuse Silverbrook of
really wanting to destroy the High Council.
That's the crux of this: The accusation is being bandied that Silver said she'd get
me to destroy the High Council for her (at least, that's the gist I'm getting), which is almost hysterical because she knows about as much as anyone else on the shard who truly knows me knows that while I've had a couple of moments, I certainly have always supported and stood behind the High Council as an entity, and helped throughout the years to ensure it continued to exist.
End of the point: I no more believe
you are trying to destroy it than you would think
I am trying to destroy it, but if we're going to bandy about silly accusations, then let them all fall out onto the table I guess.
Using real names:
If someone has asked that their real name not be used, as I and a few others have, then the issue is NOT open to debate. I don’t care if the likelihood of anyone finding me based off my first name is infinitesimal; it’s simply not in anyone else’s prevue to make that decision for me.
Strange, because up until this very moment, it's the first time I've even heard you say not to mention your name. I know you've had concerns about whether people knew who your alts were -- something I respect; but a respect you seem to drop whenever you don't feel like returning it to others.
Some people are okay with their real name being used, and that’s fine. However, those people must respect the wishes of those who feel differently. Period.
Those people probably shouldn't have passed out their real names if they were that concerned about it, but I agree, it would be a sign of respect not to use it if someone has been requested not to. I don't think there's any "period" in that sentence though, because if you fail to return the same level of respect that you expect yourself, you pretty much end up running the risk that someone is going to say or do something you're not happy about. This is the generic you, not you specifically, but you can't really put a period in a sentence where you truly cannot control that save but to not pass out your real name.
The ‘45’ minutes of HC time wasted:
On 6/07/10 at 18:43 (remember my local time is PST) the farmers started. They ended at 19:03. Less than a minute later IC I said that the HC would consider this and get back to her. A minute later IC I asked Beauvina to have a seat. This is when we have the Vent and alliance chat discussion about using alts to get a city seat, which, at the time, nobody seemed in favor of. Since Beauvina never accepted either alliance invite, she did not participate in this and in had to be told (OOC) in game as well. It’s at 19:31 where everyone simply wants to move forward that Poly is asked to continue speaking regardless of the fact that Beauvina hasn’t sat down and keeps interrupting.
That's a strange interpretation of a log where the words "I'd love to discuss this ad nauseum, but really, OOC decisions aren't going to affect IC ones," "Just give her the seat and can we move on?" "whatever, im ambivalent as long as she doesnt interrupt all meetings with cow tangents," and yet regardless of all of that, you proceeded with "No." Of course, this is because you believe that for people to have any voice in this community that they must either register on Tomes of Sosaria (in a registry that I specifically stated repeatedly is for OOC and informational purposes only, NOT a tool for forced in-game interaction) or upon these forums; requirements that are, frankly, ridiculous.
Now, you can’t honestly expect that this could have been handled ‘much’ better when we were all discussing it in several methods. Vent/alliance/icq. Quite frankly, she had to have known this could be the outcome of using a wholly improper method to attain a seat on the HC. Nobody in recent memory, going back to the beginning of 2007, has anyone even attempted this. While other cities have people’s alts as citizens, nobody has tried to use their alts as the constitutionally required community support.
Yes, yes I can expect it to have been handled better, and a lot differently. Maybe you think she might have known it was a possible outcome; from where I sit, you're the one using an OOC stranglehold that doesn't exist (nor did it exist when the rules were written; in fact it was specifically discussed that this very situation could be a potential outcome, and the people who agreed to the method of propagation all came to the conclusion that it if someone went through that much trouble, so be it).
I find it strange that you're so content to use a vice grip rule in an OOC fashion that was never intended to be used in such a manner, and you refuse to acknowledge anyone else's thoughts on the matter other than your own and the couple of people who have stepped up publicly to say, "Yeah, that's how it should be." Again, if you were moving forward with community in mind, I don't see how this would be an issue. A respected player (whether you currently respect her or not) want(ed)s to do something in the community with the High Council, and you seem to find it appropriate to take a hardline stance because in
your opinion it's about ego stroking and pissing in Wheaties and whatever else you personally feel it is.
The reason that NcT doesn’t have a seat on the HC is, as I’ve pointed out, that they haven’t had the required citizens to do so. Malag had done just fine relating the town’s RP ‘concerns’ without needing to cast multiple votes for things. While YM was away, Yew consisted of Martyna, Willa, Evilice (who DID come to HC irregularly), Lika, and Kaz (before she stopped playing ‘08ish). For a good while it was Willa who held the seat on the HC, after Ioshus and before Lika.
This is yet another version of Yew's seat on the High Council, but in the end, it's not really a crux of any concern I have. As I've said so repeatedly I'm almost tired of hearing myself say it, it's a matter of the rules have not been applied evenly, they've been applied on a case by case basis -- regardless of which version I'm being presented with now -- and that's exactly how they should be. At the end of the day, community should come before "Well, you didn't dot that 'i' or cross that 't', so don't bother."
Refer to your ICQ logs on 6/23/10 and you will find that you are wrong. Look around 3:50:23 and 4:15:28 (CST). Whether or not you chose to believe it is your own business, but substituting your belief for ‘truth’ isn’t going to work.
You might want to provide better timestamps for this debate, because at 3:50:18 CST, we're discussing the nature of the High Court, and at 4:15:ish CST, yeah, you make the comment that you're not opposed to the person in question being on the HC, but then the discussion between us continues to be the standards you think it's necessary to uphold, and again, your single-sided version of the standard that you believe should be met.
What you will notice is that 4:25:56, I mention specifically making a character to support her with, and say, "But that won't make this mess go away I suspect," and it's ironic to note that the conversation then goes to why or why not particular communities would or would not qualify based on the number of people involved. I stand by the idea that I don't think it would either.
Absolutely nothing? Since the only time she ever even pretended to do that was around election time and it was a blatant attempt to shill the vote? Something that’s never been allowed and you know it. Whoever she got to vote from outside the community didn’t stick around that night and hasn’t returned since. If you’re going to attempt to blame that on me, you can stop right there. Hard to have any impact on people I’ve never met in game, nor could I keep them away if I tried.
Actually, I
will put the blame on you for trying to use out of game resources to challenge the legitimacy of someone who actually went out and campaigned in public in a fully RPed sense, and enticed people to go and cast votes on her behalf. Why wouldn't they ever return? Perhaps due to the negative reception they received, or the negative light in which their participation was cast? It's never been allowed to campaign? That's a laugh. And YOU are the only person who has ever required someone to register online in order for their votes to count in-game. The ONLY OOC restriction on that is that someone can't parade an array of alts to vote for themselves to sit in an officer's seat -- and before someone points out "that's just what she did though," we first, have no proof they were all alts, and second, the election process for Chancellor is much different than that for representing a city. The process to represent a city was made horrifically simple so that it would encourage people to step forward, take a seat on the Council, and get something started in a community fashion that the HC could help promote. Can you honestly tell me that's what's going on here?
Re Stryker:
You know the OOC reasons that he wasn’t removed, and you know that it’s not going to be talked about publicly because it is of none of the community’s business. He made it known that things would be rough for a while, and has stopped in vent a few times to say hi. The only IC requirement placed on a Councilor is that they let the Council know of their absence.
As I said, it's not an issue. What is at the heart of it is that we don't stranglehold people over the rules. Which I've said a dozen times.
Now, could we remove Striker, Silverbrook, Chelsee Lynn and Erich A. Zann from their seats for not showing up? Certainly. In fact, the names pretty much only exist ‘on paper’ at this point and had I deleted them off the website this wouldn’t even have been brought up.
Well, as many of us already know, Silverbrook already isn't representing Magincia to the High Council, so while there seems to be some strange issue there for you, most of the rest of us get that she's not. And yeah, we probably could. That's not really my point, as I've stated repeatedly, but I guess the point's lost.
Silver’s player has run one event this year and nothing since late ’07 or early ’08 (Haiku in Magincia, and then the Cow Pageant). She has participated as a judge in one library event since then, but not in the other things we’ve done. Protest against Casca, Halloween party…
Silver's been playing longer than since 2007. While she may have missed the protest against Casca, so did I. The Halloween Party was a fun time; I'm actually sad she missed out on it. But that doesn't discredit her for what she has done when she has done it. For the record, one of her characters was also at the Royal Academy: Compassion study. Of course, throwing that out there is probably akin to saying, "OF COURSE she was at one of YOUR events, RA." To which I'd counter, "She wasn't at the Halloween event, now was she?" While not "my" event, it certainly was "our" event.
Why is it SOOOOO important that Jhelom get on the HC before anything is done in or as a city? Before there are even people saying they will back it and devote time to making it work? Before any events have been held, before the city even has a shadow of framework behind it? This is why the rules to get on the HC were put in place, to make sure that the people behind an endeavor were serious and that seats weren’t just given away.
Why is it SOOOOOOOOOO important that she doesn't get the seat on Jhelom before "anything" is done. And what is "anything." She at least took the time to set up a back story and some background before approaching the Council, which is more than a lot of people who've represented cities have done.
Again with the rules... you and I are in complete and utter disagreement as to that particular set of rules, and I have the advantage of having been there in the in-game room when we were discussing the finer nuances of the stuff via both party and in character. So I question your version of why the rules were created.
Why is it so wrong to expect that Jhelom live up to the expectations that have been in place? Why should Silver be exempted from putting any work into Jhelom before expecting a seat on the HC?
Again, those are largely
your expectations. I for one am quite willing to stand behind any respected member of the community -- and hell, new members of the community -- and see what comes of it. It's not like we've got anything to lose, is it? I mean, do we start telling evil guilds that we won't interact with them until they at least meet some minimum standard?
I’ve been trying to get LotF to assume a role in one of the cities. I made it very clear to Galen that things had to be set up before a HC seat would be given and even suggested that there should be a building nearby. Jhelom, Vesper and Minoc were my suggestions as they had attributes expressed by their guild. I even suggested Whispering Winds when Lore announced his decision to move and Duke said he wanted to sell the houses there.
I know, and frankly, I'd support Galen doing something with the Council with or without a ton of backing, again, because I believe he would have community interest at heart. Sure you made
your expectations clear, but again, I'm unsure why yours is the only voice that seems to count in the community.
So, Re: Buildings:
I never said that someone HAD to have a building in the city they represented, as that’s nearly impossible for all Britannian cities besides Britain. Having a building near their city would be good, since you can’t really put things in an NPC building and not expect them not to be taken or decay. Some civic structures would be good. With housing the way it is currently, you should be able to find even a tiny plot to plunk down a Mayor’s or Councilor’s office/home/civic center etc. I don’t expect the scale of what Yew or even NcT has done – that’s a LOT of work to place and maintain that many buildings.
That's a conversation we had the other day; you did make it pretty clear that someone should have a building nearby, but that's semi-moot. If a group of people decided to build up a community in Cove, they could do so by just roleplaying right there within the walls. Would we restrict them? I certainly hope not.
When I said ‘along the coast’ I was referring to how Clannad Skara handled housing when they took over Skara Brae. They placed 3 or 4 buildings along the cost to the NE of the city on the mainland, perfectly acceptable. Jhelom does have housing plots on the northern isle, however, they are probably all taken. So looking around the Shrine of Honor would be the next logical step, or on Dragon Isle to the north.
But then, my argument would be, if it's not directly part of that specific area, wouldn't it make as much sense for them to call it whatever they wanted?
A building isn’t a requirement, but it would be nice.
Truly, I hope that's your stance on the subject. It's how I feel about the matter too, and I hope it would never be used as a reason to deny someone the opportunity to participate.
We can continue to argue about this and drag everyone down kicking and screaming, or Silver can build a real foundation for Jhelom instead of building a house of cards.
I'm sorry you feel that way, truly. But, I'll leave it at this: if two other community members stand behind her and say, "We're good to go with this and will support her events/community," I don't expect to hear anything IC about how it's my alt or someone else's alt and that it doesn't count.